An Interview with Brian Vessa, Part 2

Dolby Podcast Episode 44 - July 31, 2008

Find out how sound is mixed for the movies with Brian Vessa, Sony Pictures’ Technical Audio Director. In Part 2, Brian talks about how sound is mixed for both movie theaters and home theaters. AND he recommends his favorite movies for showing off his home theater and how he assesses sound in a film. Don’t miss Part 1 of this two-part series about movie sound production.

Hear them all: Listen to Dolbycast on iTunes® or subscribe using your favorite RSS reader.

Mentioned in this Episode

Craig Eggers: Streaming to you from our headquarters in San Francisco, this is Dolbycast, the insider's guide to entertainment technologies from the experts at Dolby Laboratories. We're here to give you the straight talk and news on everything you need to know about technologies that excite your eyes and ears.

And welcome back to Dolbycast in what has been a very surreal San Francisco Bay Area. If you've been following the news, you've undoubtedly heard about the wildfires we've been experiencing here. At one point in time, I understand there were more than 1,500 fires burning in the state.

One side effect of the wildfires and the smoke in the air, the sunsets here have been absolutely incredible. The sun has been literally transformed into this huge orange ball that just sits out there on the horizon.

In a previous Dolbycast, we began a conversation with Brian Vessa. Brian is the technical Audio Director for Sony Pictures in Culver City, California. Brian was leading us through the many facets of creating a soundtrack for a production when we literally ran out of time. We invited Brian back to Dolbycast to discuss audio production for movies and home theater entertainment, and he graciously accepted. Brian Vessa, welcome back to Dolbycast.

Brian Vessa: It's great to be back, Craig.

Craig: So, Brian, when I visited with you back in December, we were in the Burt Lancaster Theater, which I understand is one of several different rooms that you mix audio in at Sony Pictures in Culver City. What impressed me was: A. it had a huge screen, and B: it had this huge mixing board across the back. Can you tell me about that room? I assume it's your laboratory, right?

Brian: Well, the mixing stage is definitely a laboratory. Burt Lancaster Theater is actually one of our smaller feature stages. There's some bigger ones, too.

Craig: Is that right?

Brian: It is.

Craig: Wow.

Brian: We have actually two that are next the next slot up, and then one huge one called the Cary Grant Theater.

Craig: Mm‑hmm.

Brian: Mixing is a great process because this is when everybody's hard work that they've done designing, creating, editing, syncing and all those kind of things, start to come together. Mixing really happens in two stages. First is the predubs, as they call them, which is when the dialogue and the effects are all combined down into smaller pieces.

So you're starting off with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tracks, and you get down to just maybe 100 tracks. Each of these are small little units that have been mixed into full surround sound and have all the balances and everything. There's the production dialogue predub, there's the ADR predub. You've got the Foley predub, the background predub, the hard effects predubs, the sound design predub. So all of these are kind of separate.

At that point, the basic collaboration is between the mixers and the designers, which are the editors, the sound designer, anyone that's involved with that team. That's their first shot to put it all together without anybody being involved like the director. Then we go into the final mix, which is when we start bringing in the talent and really getting a full collaboration happening.

Craig: So, Brian, the predubs, do they occur in a place like the Burt Lancaster Theater, or do those occur someplace else and those resources are eventually imported into the mixing theater, if you will?

Brian: Well, it actually happens both ways. With the timelines getting short like they are now, sometimes dialogue predubs will happen on one stage and effects predubs will happen on another.

Craig: Mm‑hmm.

Brian: Or sometimes they go to a small room to do the predubs, then they come to a big room to do the final mix. So it kind of varies from production to production.

Craig: Gotcha. So we often hear of things called “stems” in our industry. Can you talk about what a stem is and how it relates to what you actually create in your final production?

Brian: Well, as I said back at the beginning, there's 3 basic components to a soundtrack: the dialogue, the music and the sound effects. So when you go into the final mix, you actually create a stem of each of those which is the completely finalized mix of that component. There'll be a dialogue stem that has all of the dialogue, whether it was production or added, however it was created. It will all be matched, leveled and perfectly put together into a surround sound package. There'll be one for the music and there'll be probably several for the effects.

Each of those stems is what I call a finally mixed component. When you add those components together at an even level, that's the mix of the movie.

Craig: So the stem, is the stem a 5.1 track of all the dialogue, all the music, all the effects?

Brian: Yeah. If it's a 5.1 mix, then each of those stems will be 5.1.

Craig: Gotcha. OK. Now we're in this huge, beautiful Burt Lancaster Theater. I suppose the director would be sitting there, and he or she is watching their presentation and listening to all the music. Can you walk us through how you actually present your final product to the directors and the producers?

Brian: Well, what happens at that point is all this work that's been done for the predubs gets brought together, and those now become the sources. We start in with the process of mixing and playing back. So the team sits there, the production team — which varies, sometimes the director is there for the whole thing, sometimes he only comes for final playbacks. It just depends on how involved he is. But there's...

Craig: So, Brian?

Brian: Yes?

Craig: Brian, you're actually mixing in a theater, then, correct?

Brian: Yes, it's a full theater. The movies today that are intended for theatrical presentation will be mixed in, basically, a theater. It has a big screen, it's got speakers behind the screen, it's got speakers on the side of the theater and speakers in the back.

Craig: Mm‑hmm.

Brian: It's calibrated. You look at a picture being projected onto a screen and you listen to the way it's going to sound in a theater.

Craig: Incredible. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Go ahead.

Brian: So when you first start in with the mixing process, what I would call the final mixing process, which is when we're creating these stems that I just described, the production team will usually have a series of playbacks. They'll collaborate and decide what needs to be done. Then they'll start taking notes and they start working it.

One thing I should probably mention. The music is never predubbed. What happens is they predub the effects and the dialogue, but then when you come to the final mix, that's the first time that the music editor brings the music and everybody hears that music with all the other work that's happened. That's a special time, because you now have to start to be thinking about the balances.

So the main thing that goes on in mixing, besides adding things together and deciding where they go in the left‑right spectrum or the surround sound spectrum, is how loud and soft they are. The balance of the dialogue, music and effects is extremely critical, and people go over it time and time again. There's all kinds of ideas and notes, they try this and they try that. That's part of the collaboration that goes on in mixing is that balance. It's a very special part of the film.

Basically, when we get to the stage, most of the mixers today are... There's two sound mixers that are on the stage usually for the final mix. One handles the dialogue and the music, the other handles the sound effects in general. For really, really big films, they may bring in a dedicated music mixer. So you have the mixers now collaborating with the sound team that did all the initial work. Now you've got the production team behind them, which is often called the “backfield”, who are putting in their comments, saying they want to try this and they want to try that.

During this process we try all those things, we make this balance, we check each scene. Every time they do it, there's more playbacks and more notes. They'll often times go out and listen to these mixes in other theaters. They'll preview these mixes sometimes with audiences and they'll check the reaction from those audiences. That may give them indications of maybe balancing things differently, or possibly even re-cutting the movie.

This whole process goes on for a while, while they're previewing these stems. In most movies, the director has the final approval signoff at the end, that he's happy with the final mix.

Craig: Amazing. Absolutely amazing. So Brian, we're going to take a short musical break. This is Dolbycast, back in a moment.

[music]

Announcer: If you have questions for the experts at Dolby Laboratories, email us at dolbycast@dolby.com. That's D‑O‑L‑B‑Y‑C‑A‑S‑T at dolby.com. For more information and links pertaining to today's topic, be sure to log on to dolby.com/dolbycast.

[music]

Craig: And we are back at Dolbycast with our special guest, Mr. Brian Vessa. Brian is a Director of Technical Audio for Sony Pictures, and we're talking about how sound is created for movie soundtracks. So, give me an estimate. You talked about so many people being involved in the creation of these soundtracks. It must be hundreds of people, right?

Brian: Well, if you consider from the very beginning when the sound was recorded through all the editorial and everything that's had to be done, yeah, it's definitely at least 100 people.

Craig: And it's really a team process and really a team effort. It comes together through so much collaboration and yet so much innovation and artistic intent, all being folded together in this great production. Incredible stuff!

Brian: That's a good way to put it.

Craig: Brian, a lot of movies today, if I understand correctly, are encoded what 24 bit, 48 kilohertz? Do you see movies going to 96 kilohertz in the future?

Brian: Well, that's an interesting question. I think they will. I think that there's some stuff that's happening already. A lot of the problem is we're in an interesting phase because film and the way the soundtracks have been actually put on film have all been using codecs and they are basically 16 bit, 48K. So a lot of people go: “Why would I want to do anything more because this is how I'm exhibiting?”

We now have digital cinema, which is a 96K format, and we have Blu-ray Disc, which is a 96K format. So there is some motion toward that. The infrastructure of our studios have been basically set up for 48/24, but now that mixing is being done in workstations, and there's more modern equipment coming in all the time, there is a very small movement toward 96K, but I think it's going to be a while until the industry sort of moves totally in that direction.

Craig: Very interesting. So, Brian, a very good friend of ours informed me that you have written the definitive white paper on audio for the home theatre, that is how to transform audio productions that you create for the cinema into a compelling presentation for the home theatre. Brian, how does audio for home theatre differ from the production that you would create for a cinemaplex, if you will.

Brian: Originally, the sound that we've recorded on the stems and for the final mix was designed for the theatre, which is a large room, big speakers, you're listening through a screen, and all the balances and everything that we've worked on are set up to be in that environment, just perfect, and exactly the director wanted to hear it.

Now if we take it and play that same thing at home in a small room with small speakers and lower volume, our ears don't perceive things the same way, even if it's physically, exactly the same sound coming out, our ears aren't going to get it the same way. So we make a separate print master for that.

Now basically what we do is we take the same theatrical stems that were made, put them up, listen to them through small speakers, and make a decision about whether it's translating. Is it sounding like the movie? Or is it not quite sounding like the movie, and I'd like to make some adjustment?

So I always work with the lead mixer from the film, who knows the film inside and out, and we go through and do like little subtle rebalances and things like that to try to get it to translate. So the actual sound that's there is the same sound that was in the theatre. We're not going back and remixing the movie. We're just simply doing some creative rebalancing and a little moving around to get it to kind of sit easily for the listener at home.

You've probably all had the experience of listening to a movie with the remote control in your hand, and you crank it up to hear the dialogue and then when the music and sound effects come in, you have to turn it down.

Craig: We have a solution for that, by the way.

Brian: Compression.

Craig: No, no. It's called Dolby Volume. But that's a whole different podcast.

Brian: Basically what we try to do with the home theatre mix is rebalance things slightly so that it's easier to just sit in front of your home system and comfortably listen to everything without having to have that remote control in your hand and still get the impression that you would have had from the theatre. That's the basics of it.

Craig: So, Brian, the mixing stage that you used to execute the home video presentation, is that literally a home theatre‑type environment?

Brian: Well, many times we'll just go to the same stage where the theatrical was done, because that's where the mixer is, and that's where all the audio elements are, and those are the people that know the movie, and we'll just set up a small speaker array right near the mixing board in near field.

Sometimes, we'll go to a smaller room. That's actually, obviously, optimum, but can't always be done. We'll go to a smaller room where we can listen to it where the room itself is smaller, the walls are smaller, it's a deader environment, a little bit more like a living room is going to be.

But I would say 90% of the work I do is done in the same theatre where it was mixed.

Craig: So, Brian, you mentioned extended versions, is that the director's cut that we see on home video?

Brian: An extended version is something that's done after the theatrical presentation, usually where they add scenes back in that were cut along the way either for time or for a rating or something like that. An extended version is a generic terminology. You could mark it an extended version as an unrated, as a director's cut, or any of those kinds of things depending on the kind of movie. But generally what happens is they go back into the film, find scenes that maybe didn't make it to the original one, or maybe they cut out of a scene at some point. But they extend the scene a little bit. Maybe there was a dirty joke at the end that they cut away from, or they'll go ahead and put that back in this version, various things like that.

Craig: Got you.

Brian: It's not done on every movie, just on certain movies that they think it would be beneficial or if there was really some cool stuff in the movie that didn't make it to the original.

Craig: So, Brian, do you get invited to movie premieres?

Brian: I don't actually.

Craig: So, that leads me to the next question. At some point in time, you get to see the finished production. Is it one of those cases where you've seen it and heard it so many times, it's like: “Eh...” Or do you literally sit in the audience and get goose bumps and go, “Wow, this is absolutely incredible! We did great here”.

Brian: Yeah. When it works and you can sit there and listen to your work and just go,  “Man, that really worked!”, then that's really exciting. And of course, if something didn't work quite the way you thought then it's “Errr!” But you're the only one that's going to know. Most of the time, the audience just accepts everything.

Craig: We tend to be our own worst critics. I'm sure there's probably times in the theatre you go: “Oooh, sure have gotten that one a little bit better.”

Brian: That's right.

Craig: So, tell me, we have a lot of listeners that have home theatre systems, and I'm sure you have a home theatre system. Gosh, I hope you have one. Tell me what you demonstrate to your friends when you're demonstrating your home theatre system?

Brian: You mean what movies do I demonstrate?

Craig: What movies, what scenes from movies, yes.

Brian: Well, I guess I'm really into the science fiction ones, so I'll always pull out some science fiction, which has the coolest sound design, and you can usually take the most liberties, or an animated feature. Spider-Man's an example, which you know. We like Transformers. We like Star Wars. We like Ratatouille. All of those have really fascinating soundtracks, because when you're not really tied to absolute reality, you can make the sound bigger and more fantastic. If it's just a talking heads movie, there's not a whole lot you can do with the sound except make it work for the conversation.

Craig: Got you. As a sound designer and a sound professional, can you explain to me how it is you can hear explosions in space? How does that happen?

Brian: [laughter] Well, that's a good one, isn't it?

Craig: And that deep rumble you get as the spaceship is cruising through space. I love it.

So what would you tell our listeners? When you're listening to a soundtrack that you've spent all kinds of time, invested yourself, invested all the artistic talent that your team has, what should they be listening for when they're hearing a great soundtrack?

Brian: I think you're listening for sound that brings you to the immediacy of the movie, that it actually makes it seem like you're inside the movie instead of just watching it from a distance. And if the sound manages to do that, if it totally brings you and encompasses you, involves you with the movie, then it's really done its job, and you walk away humming the musical themes, feeling those amazing moments that happened, and it makes the movie memorable.

Craig: Well I can tell you guys do some incredible work. And, Brian, I really do appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, to talk about your art form and how it impacts what we ultimately hear in a home theatre. Again, thanks from everybody at the Dolby team, and we're really happy to have you with us.

Brian: Well, thanks very much for having me. I enjoyed it.

Craig: I said this before, but I'm going to say it again: It really takes the dedicated efforts of a whole host of professionals that envision, create, deliver the emotion, as well as the impact we experience when we watch a movie. I think from our conversation with Brian, we now have a clearer understanding of just how awesome that effort can be.

For our listeners, we have some exciting subjects planned for future podcasts. So, as they say, stay tuned, keep listening, and if you like what you hear, tell your friends. In the meantime, don't forget to send us your questions to our email address: dolbycast@dolby.com, or call us and leave a message: 888‑6-DOLBY-C. I'm Craig Eggers. This is Dolbycast. See you soon.

Back to Top

Back to Dolbycast main page